<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Breaking the web</title>
	<atom:link href="http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/</link>
	<description>Adventures in web and graphic design</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 19:14:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-45132</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/#comment-45132</guid>
		<description>Suggesting that we specify specific browser versions in the code is an attack on smaller browsers and enables (and encourages) browsers to vary how they implement standards.

The solution is to specify which HTML / CSS / etc standard we coded for, and, horror of horrors, the browser could interpret correctly?  (Maybe a variable for whether you want a browser to &quot;do its best&quot; if it doesn&#039;t fully support the standard you specified.)  This plus new HTML and CSS specs that tie up ambiguous loose ends would address the browser compatibility issues that currently double the time required for web projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suggesting that we specify specific browser versions in the code is an attack on smaller browsers and enables (and encourages) browsers to vary how they implement standards.</p>
<p>The solution is to specify which HTML / CSS / etc standard we coded for, and, horror of horrors, the browser could interpret correctly?  (Maybe a variable for whether you want a browser to &#8220;do its best&#8221; if it doesn&#8217;t fully support the standard you specified.)  This plus new HTML and CSS specs that tie up ambiguous loose ends would address the browser compatibility issues that currently double the time required for web projects.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-44342</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/#comment-44342</guid>
		<description>@Greg

&lt;blockquote&gt;I believe it all comes down to progression of the field. If some people are sitting behind at IE7 and CSS 2, what difficulties will that cause when we’ve reached CSS 4 or 5? It just doesn’t seem like we’re doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by allowing developers, even inexperienced ones, to freeze in the development of their skills and work. We need to look and move forward, not back.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That statement fairly well sums up my concerns too.

Although, I also find myself considering the approach that Adobe (and formerly Macromedia) have taken with Flash. The Flash Player does support a great many (maybe all?) legacy versions of Flash, meaning that if you built a Flash site many years back (I have sites going back almost a decade) they still work today. I am very grateful I have never had to rework these sites, since during that time Flash has had 3 radical revisions to its programming language, and I would literally have to start from scratch! While there there are no doubt some Flash developers &quot;stuck in the past&quot; as far as their programming skills go, I don&#039;t think there is any evidence that backwards compatibility has been a roadblock for the Flash development community as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg</p>
<blockquote><p>I believe it all comes down to progression of the field. If some people are sitting behind at IE7 and CSS 2, what difficulties will that cause when we’ve reached CSS 4 or 5? It just doesn’t seem like we’re doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by allowing developers, even inexperienced ones, to freeze in the development of their skills and work. We need to look and move forward, not back.</p></blockquote>
<p>That statement fairly well sums up my concerns too.</p>
<p>Although, I also find myself considering the approach that Adobe (and formerly Macromedia) have taken with Flash. The Flash Player does support a great many (maybe all?) legacy versions of Flash, meaning that if you built a Flash site many years back (I have sites going back almost a decade) they still work today. I am very grateful I have never had to rework these sites, since during that time Flash has had 3 radical revisions to its programming language, and I would literally have to start from scratch! While there there are no doubt some Flash developers &#8220;stuck in the past&#8221; as far as their programming skills go, I don&#8217;t think there is any evidence that backwards compatibility has been a roadblock for the Flash development community as a whole.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Wardwell</title>
		<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-44128</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Wardwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/#comment-44128</guid>
		<description>I just don&#039;t see Chris&#039; statement being overly logical. Even with the hope that the differences between browsers will become less severe,  it won&#039;t change the fact that many websites will be stuck at version 7 rendering many versions from now. Plus, if the changes between 8 and 9 are &quot;internally &#039;breaking changes&#039;&quot;, then there will be more versions for IE to allow websites to be stuck at.

This is precisely the part of this idea I have difficulties with. If the developer is not forced to update their website for the current, or last previous as I am suggesting, version of the browser, then there will be some websites stuck at 7, 8, 9 ,10, etc. until the changes are not &quot;internally &#039;breaking changes&#039;&quot;. The only result will be browser that have to be able to render all previous versions until the versions that feature only slight differences like Chris mentions.

I think your last comment hit the nail on the head with, &quot;My suspicion is that many legacy sites won’t be upgraded until they break.&quot; It would solve the problem for many to allow one previous version to automatically opt out to, but will force an update deadline. This will allow plenty of time for the developers who are aware of the problem to get their sites up to speed. For all the others that won&#039;t be aware of the problem until their site breaks, they need that push to move forward. Otherwise, they are precisely the people that will be holding us at version 7 when the current version is 20.

I believe it all comes down to progression of the field. If some people are sitting behind at IE7 and CSS 2, what difficulties will that cause when we&#039;ve reached CSS 4 or 5? It just doesn&#039;t seem like we&#039;re doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by allowing developers, even inexperienced ones, to freeze in the development of their skills and work. We need to look and move forward, not back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just don&#8217;t see Chris&#8217; statement being overly logical. Even with the hope that the differences between browsers will become less severe,  it won&#8217;t change the fact that many websites will be stuck at version 7 rendering many versions from now. Plus, if the changes between 8 and 9 are &#8220;internally &#8216;breaking changes&#8217;&#8221;, then there will be more versions for IE to allow websites to be stuck at.</p>
<p>This is precisely the part of this idea I have difficulties with. If the developer is not forced to update their website for the current, or last previous as I am suggesting, version of the browser, then there will be some websites stuck at 7, 8, 9 ,10, etc. until the changes are not &#8220;internally &#8216;breaking changes&#8217;&#8221;. The only result will be browser that have to be able to render all previous versions until the versions that feature only slight differences like Chris mentions.</p>
<p>I think your last comment hit the nail on the head with, &#8220;My suspicion is that many legacy sites won’t be upgraded until they break.&#8221; It would solve the problem for many to allow one previous version to automatically opt out to, but will force an update deadline. This will allow plenty of time for the developers who are aware of the problem to get their sites up to speed. For all the others that won&#8217;t be aware of the problem until their site breaks, they need that push to move forward. Otherwise, they are precisely the people that will be holding us at version 7 when the current version is 20.</p>
<p>I believe it all comes down to progression of the field. If some people are sitting behind at IE7 and CSS 2, what difficulties will that cause when we&#8217;ve reached CSS 4 or 5? It just doesn&#8217;t seem like we&#8217;re doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by allowing developers, even inexperienced ones, to freeze in the development of their skills and work. We need to look and move forward, not back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-44006</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/#comment-44006</guid>
		<description>@Greg - I &lt;em&gt;hope&lt;/em&gt; that if version targeting is implement in its proposed form (defaults to IE7 rendering mode), that future versions of IE also fall back only one version, as you are suggesting.

As you point out, this approach would give web authors additional time to fix their sites. However, if an author has not learned of the version targeting changes by the time IE8 is released, why should we assume they will be aware of them by the time IE9 is launched? My suspicion is that many legacy sites won&#039;t be upgraded until they break. That may be when IE9 is released, or if Microsoft take the &quot;freezing&quot; approach, it may happen many versions from now.

Chris Wilson from the IE team has indicated that rather than IE becoming bloated with multiple rendering engines, he sees that eventually the problem will go away. From an interview with Sitepoint:

&lt;blockquote&gt;SP: Now, with this developer opt-in model that Internet Explorer and, if it goes into the HTML spec, all browsers will eventually adopt, are browsers over time going to have, you know, five, six, seven, ten, eighteen different rendering modes for each version of the spec that&#039;s released over time, or will this tendency of the differences to tend towards zero over time mean that one day this can go away?

Chris Wilson: I think that my personal hope, certainly, is that one day this gets to go away, that the differences between browser versions are not what we call internally &#039;breaking changes.&#039;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure if we can infer from Chris&#039; statement whether IE7 will be the default rendering engine in IE9+, or not...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg &#8211; I <em>hope</em> that if version targeting is implement in its proposed form (defaults to IE7 rendering mode), that future versions of IE also fall back only one version, as you are suggesting.</p>
<p>As you point out, this approach would give web authors additional time to fix their sites. However, if an author has not learned of the version targeting changes by the time IE8 is released, why should we assume they will be aware of them by the time IE9 is launched? My suspicion is that many legacy sites won&#8217;t be upgraded until they break. That may be when IE9 is released, or if Microsoft take the &#8220;freezing&#8221; approach, it may happen many versions from now.</p>
<p>Chris Wilson from the IE team has indicated that rather than IE becoming bloated with multiple rendering engines, he sees that eventually the problem will go away. From an interview with Sitepoint:</p>
<blockquote><p>SP: Now, with this developer opt-in model that Internet Explorer and, if it goes into the HTML spec, all browsers will eventually adopt, are browsers over time going to have, you know, five, six, seven, ten, eighteen different rendering modes for each version of the spec that&#8217;s released over time, or will this tendency of the differences to tend towards zero over time mean that one day this can go away?</p>
<p>Chris Wilson: I think that my personal hope, certainly, is that one day this gets to go away, that the differences between browser versions are not what we call internally &#8216;breaking changes.&#8217;</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if we can infer from Chris&#8217; statement whether IE7 will be the default rendering engine in IE9+, or not&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Wardwell</title>
		<link>http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/comment-page-1/#comment-43959</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Wardwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://f6design.com/journal/2008/02/01/breaking-the-web/#comment-43959</guid>
		<description>On one hand, I agree with your idea of opting out instead of opting in. If we had to choose to be excluded from the new render mode, it would encourage more people to revisit their sites and improve them. However, with opt out as the default setting of the browser, once the new version of the browser is released it ensures that your website will remain unchanged until you have the time to return to your site and verify its performance in the new browser. Sounds pretty appealing, doesn&#039;t it? The problem is, in reality how many people will revisit those sites and update them for the new browser? How many will take the easy way out and allow it to continue being rendered in version 7? I would say the majority will take the lazy route.
I think the best option would be to utilize the opt in code, with opt out as the default, but only offer a single step backwards in browser versions. In other words, version 8 features an auto opt out rendering in version 7, version 9 will opt out to 8, 10 to 9, 11 to 10, etc. That way, the designer is forced to update their site to the newer version, but have a respectable time span to accomplish this task. It would continue to ensure progression in the field, but will alleviate the problem of waking up to a deluge of clients wanting their websites fixed now!
Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On one hand, I agree with your idea of opting out instead of opting in. If we had to choose to be excluded from the new render mode, it would encourage more people to revisit their sites and improve them. However, with opt out as the default setting of the browser, once the new version of the browser is released it ensures that your website will remain unchanged until you have the time to return to your site and verify its performance in the new browser. Sounds pretty appealing, doesn&#8217;t it? The problem is, in reality how many people will revisit those sites and update them for the new browser? How many will take the easy way out and allow it to continue being rendered in version 7? I would say the majority will take the lazy route.<br />
I think the best option would be to utilize the opt in code, with opt out as the default, but only offer a single step backwards in browser versions. In other words, version 8 features an auto opt out rendering in version 7, version 9 will opt out to 8, 10 to 9, 11 to 10, etc. That way, the designer is forced to update their site to the newer version, but have a respectable time span to accomplish this task. It would continue to ensure progression in the field, but will alleviate the problem of waking up to a deluge of clients wanting their websites fixed now!<br />
Any thoughts?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

